Presence Under Pressure: Reclaiming Charisma in an Uncivil Workplace

In this episode of Civility Matters, John O'Brien sits down with Eleni Kelakos to explore the powerful link between civility and charismatic presence. Eleni shares how treating others with respect actually amplifies a leader's charismatic presence which, in turn, reinforces civil behavior.  This can create a positive feedback loop within workplace culture. The conversation also turns to the flip side: how rudeness and incivility quietly erode charisma, diminishing trust and influence over time. Left unchecked, these behaviors can spiral into a toxic workplace where connection and leadership impact suffer. A compelling case for civility as a leadership superpower.

You can find out more about Eleni's work at:

https://elenikelakos.com/

For more on my work on rudeness and incivility, you can find information at:

www.activatesuccess.org

www.rudenessrehab.com

https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnmobrienphd/

https://www.youtube.com/@RudenessRehab

For more on my work on rudeness and incivility, you can find information at:

www.activatesuccess.org

www.rudenessrehab.com

https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnmobrienphd/

https://www.youtube.com/@RudenessRehab

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Civility Matters, the podcast that seeks to answer the important question. Why you got to be so rude? Hi there, I'm John O'Brien, author of the book Rudeness Rehab, and as you probably guessed, host of the Civility Matters podcast. We're going to be talking about reclaiming charismatic presence in a toxic workplace today with my good friend, mentor, and expert on speaking and charismatic presence, Alleny Kalakos. So you will greatly enjoy this discussion, I believe. But first, as I travel around the country and speak to groups, I often hear from people that they are concerned about the rise of rudeness and incivility in our society. But then they ask, John, is it really that bad? And are things really that bad? And I believe we need to turn to research for those answers. So each month, as you know, if you've listened to this before, I like to provide my listeners with a startling statistic, or a few, in relation to the topic that we are addressing. So this month's topic of charismatic presence and speaking, I thought a little bit of uh data around that would be interesting. So, first, you may be surprised to know that roughly 75% of people report at least some fear of public speaking. 75%. And for those of you uh trivia uh people, public fear of public speaking is also known as glossophobia. Glossophobia. You can send me um some of the winnings when you do win using that data point. And this is from Teleprompter 2025. An additional statistic from that same reference: 57% of workers say they've gone to great lengths to avoid speaking in front of others. And in fact, one out of five have faked being sick to dodge a presentation. So clearly, lots of people are in need of skills around speaking. And when you pair that, as we will talk about today, with an office environment that may have toxicity or instability, it really makes those speaking engagements quite challenging. Now, how about in terms of um charisma? So the work of Wojinska, Bazinska, and Jaworski, I may not be saying those names exactly correctly, in 1998, said that 82% of our judgment of others is based on how charismatic they are, how much we believe they are charismatic. We form that impression within a few seconds of meeting someone. And we are judging their charismatic presence by a combination of their warmth and our perception of their competence. And in fact, in social interactions, these researchers say that charisma is one of the major things that we are scanning for. And this original work has also been referenced by Princeton psychologists more recently. So charismatic presence and the presence that people have does form a foundational component of our impressions of them. Finally, just to throw in a little AI, because that's all that we are hearing about. 33% of people say that now AI-generated communication or the perception that someone's using that erodes leadership credibility, which is more than double the 13% of people who think it enhances it. So authenticity is something that people are really yearning for and also dubious of in the workplace, which means that people do need to be using their presence more, and ideally their charismatic presence, which we will hear about in just a moment. So let's talk about today's guest, Elaine Kalakos. Eleni Kalakos, CSP, which stands for, I believe it's she'll tell me, certified speaking professional, which is a very high designation only a few people get. She's also known as the speaker whisperer, which she will tell us about. She helps leaders and teams communicate and present with a calm, confident, charismatic presence that inspires trust, deepens connection, and moves people to action. Drawing on her background as a professional actor and singer songwriter, Alaney brings performance techniques, humor, and practical tools to her work as an executive coach, corporate trainer, and keynote speaker. She's a Brown University graduate and past president of the National Speakers Association of Michigan. She's worked with organizations including GM, Allstate, and Google. She's also the author of three award-winning books, including the book entitled Claim the Stage and her most recent publication that will be talking about Charismatic Presence. So I'd ask you to please join me in giving the warmest Civility Matters welcome to Alaney Kalakos. Proud is applaud us!

unknown 5:22

Woohoo!

SPEAKER_01 5:25

The huge studio audience welcomes you.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

Yeah, I love that. I'm just beyond thrilled to be here with you.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

Well, we're thrilled to have you. Um, and I was I always like to start off before we get into the serious stuff, let's do some fun stuff. So I wondered if we could start off by having you share one fun fact about yourself.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

Okay. My mother and I, when I was a mere child and living in Israel for my dad's job, were chased down a hill by two angry camels who were hobbled together. Yes, chased down the hill, and I never knew my mom could run that fast. That's that's really what I have to say about that really harrowing moment in my childhood.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

Well, that um that sounds in some ways terrifying. Um, but I'm also uh I'm glad it's a funny story now, perhaps. Because few people can say that they have been chased by camels, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:32

Yes, yes. It's a distinction.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

Yes, it is, yes, it is. Um, speaking of distinctions, just to ask, see, am I correct in the CSP certified speaking professional?

SPEAKER_00 6:42

Certified speaking professionals. There aren't very many of us, and you're put through a really rigorous, rigorous, rigorous uh procedure to be certified for this. So I'm I'm glad it's over with, and I'm honored to have it.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Yes, yes, well, that's that's great. I I knew it was a distinction, so I just want to make sure that the people knew about that. Okay, so speaking of your expertise, tell us a little bit about your expertise in speaking um as well as in kind of this charismatic presence that we'll be talking about and how you came to specialize.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

Well, you know, John, I started out as an obsessive actress and then morphed into an obsessive singer and songwriter. And throughout that time frame, those were many years of my professional life, I had to show up consistently and with confidence, uh, under pressure and under scrutiny, not just in performances, but in those really high-pressure auditions and interviews. Those are some of the more uh harrowing kinds of performances, if you think about it, because you feel like you're really being judged.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:53

And judging has a lot to do with whether or not what I call your big, beautiful charismatic presence is maximized or minimized. And um, I will talk about that here, but I wound up doing this work because I had to learn. I had to learn how to show up fully and allow what I call your charismatic presence, which really is your innate uh yumminess, that is a professional term. It is the essence of who you are, right? Yeah, unlid. It's allowing yourself like any little baby out there, any little baby with two legs, any little four-legged baby with fur, they are irresistible just by being who they are. They're not trying to be liked, they're not trying to get the gig, they're not trying to impress you. They are just magnetic because they're so fully in the moment, allowing themselves to overflow with that charismatic presence. I had to learn how to do this as an actor. I had great teachers, and over time, um, it I started to think, you know, I think I could help executives with this with this training that I have. I think I could help them be more present, be more real, be more physically relaxed, and be able to connect more in these high-stakes spotlight moments that matter. So I hung out my shingle. You know, I kind of got off the road as a singer-songwriter. I was newly married, and I had some, I had stepchildren, and I thought, you know what, I'm gonna do this here in my backyard. I'm gonna hang my shingle out as a presence and presentation coach. And as they say, you know, if you build it, they will come.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

That's how it all evolved, if you will.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

Um so again, based on the skills you had to develop through your work, you were then able to see the value that, first of all, the expertise that you had to develop in that, but that that's something you could share with others.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

Yeah, and and over the last 20 something years now of doing this work, I developed principles. They came naturally. You know, over time you start to realize there's a there. It was my there there. I call them the five presence principles. And uh these principles form the framework of all the work that I do. It doesn't matter what it is, whether it's coaching or training or speaking. It is an expression of what I know to help you be front and center and not let yourself be limited by your own uh what I call your lies of mind, your limiting beliefs, or by external sources.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

Uh-huh. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

Outside of yourself, circumstances outside of yourself that can make you play small.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

Yes. Yep. So let me ask you, what's one experience that most changed how you think about work and about people at work?

SPEAKER_00 11:15

Okay. This happened so long ago, but it was pivotal to my knowing myself and knowing what would make me come out and play and what wouldn't, which is the essence of what I'm really working on with my clients. And it was so long ago, yet like so fresh in my mind because it was so wounding and I think so indicative of how it can be out there, especially in the world that we're in right now, where people are less, they are censoring themselves less, they are speaking out using their inner voice at times, and there and it is it is hurtful and harmful. I believe, okay, this is the actor in me speaking, there's a difference between critique and criticism. I was trained by teachers who taught you how to give healthy, useful critique. And I was, uh I'll make this short, but really honestly, the experience that changed things for me and really set me on my path was an audition I had for an agent in New York. She not only I gave, I was there to give a monologue and for her to judge me on it and potentially bring me onto her roster as an artist. She made me wait. I think that's rude for an hour and a quarter. I was as one with the the leather chair in her office at that point.

SPEAKER_03 12:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:48

She took one look at me when she finally deigned to bring me into her inner office. She did not say hello, she simply looked me up and down and told me this. I'm six feet tall. She said, You're too tall, you're just too tall. Those were her first words to me. And then I pathetically went over into the corner and delivered the audition for her. Those words, her first words to me, punctured me to the core. And if I had been a balloon, I would have just I basically deflated right there in the room. And the monologue I gave for her was it was not a good one. I didn't show up. I really didn't. And then when I was done, she repeated it. She said, you know, um, I've seen that monologue a million times. There is nothing special about that monologue, and you know what, it doesn't matter because I'm not going to take you on. You're never going to work. You're too tall. And I I it was like a like I say, a pin deflated me. That sense of being deflated by somebody else's words. I was so wounded by that experience. I fortunately had the presence of mind to remind myself that I mattered and that I have value. And that, and I said, as I said to her, I have worked and I will work again, and I do not need your help to do it. And then I turned my back on her and I left the room.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Good for you.

SPEAKER_00 14:21

But it's that, you know, it is so easy to be thrown by somebody else's words and energy. And when we let that happen, we lose our control. I that's what I realized that day. You know, the truth of the matter was I let her make me play small. And we do this in the face sometimes of what's coming at us from the outside, combined with what we the beliefs that we've developed from the inside. That really is it was a significant moment in my life that set me on my path in many respects.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

Which I think is a nice lead-in. Thank you for the lead-in, to talking about your recent book, Charismatic Presence, Five Principles for Magnetic Presentations, right? Which is kind of a testament to your resilience in that moment and how you handled it, but also just maybe, you know, talk a little bit about um the book itself.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

Well, this book, which I'm really proud of, it's book number three, I Love Me, My Book Babies. And this book is really the accumulation of my 20-some years of experience and expertise in this area. And I lay out these five principles. The principles themselves, which come from my work, my experience, my education as a as a performer, as a professional performer, are actually quite simple. Know thyself, know your blessings and your blocks, know what you're great at because you want to maximize those and what's getting in your way. Be thyself. The toughest thing, the most important thing, and is what we're really talking about here, no matter what, whether that camera is three inches from your face, whether the people in the room, as I experienced, are not really giving you the time of day and maybe eating their lunch, whether you walk in and someone is in there who uh uh is being combative, right? All you want to do is let those little flappies shut and let that charismatic presence shrink. Prepare thyself, which is huge for me. Preparation is everything. You, John, are a master preparer. It's one of the things I admire about you is the time and attention that you take, even for just putting together uh your your uh this this uh this podcast, this live event. I I know you appreciate the fact that preparation leads to greater confidence. On my wall, it says, these are my words, practice builds confidence, confidence builds presence, and presence is power. And I see practice as being preparation on every level, right? Yes, and then the last the last two simply are commit thyself, commit thyself to being in the present moment, rock and rolling with whatever comes up, right? Doing whatever it takes, and the last one is turn thyself on so you can turn other people on. That means bringing yourself to aliveness, using the things that you love, that you're good at to help you bring a your three presence planes, your physical presence, your vocal presence, and your energetic presence, that vibe you put out to maximize that piece, you know, turn that flame up, right? If you think of charismatic presence as a pilot light, you are the one in charge of turning up that flame. So that's what this book is really all about. And I cannot I cannot separate charismatic presence or presence from presenting or communicating. The two things go hand in hand, and it's all under the banner of leadership as far as I'm concerned.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Yes, yes, um so uh in terms of being fully present, as you describe, does being fully present make someone a better listener, do you think, in contentious conversations, not just a better speaker?

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Yes. I think it's critical to be able to step into a difficult conversation with intentions, certainly. That's a huge part of my work. Uh, I really believe you have to know why you're there. It's the skewer that holds everything together in relationship to that audience of one or many. And always, I think, and again, speaking from a leadership standpoint, okay. I think great speakers are great leaders, and great leaders are great speakers. Being present enough, being in a relaxed, present body, okay, breathing allows you the space to be curious and listen better. It's all about listening, it's all about listening and asking the right questions, and not letting yourself get sucked into the the crazy.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Yes, yep, so um linking to the theme of this podcast, specifically civility. Oh, what a surprise! I'm asking a question about that. So a shot. Can charisma and civility coexist? Or does commanding a room pull against listening and yielding to others, as some might think?

SPEAKER_00 20:10

What was the very last part of that sentence? Say it again.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Sure. So I'll say that the whole thing. So can charisma and civility coexist, or does commanding a room pull against listening and yielding space to others when you're listening?

SPEAKER_00 20:26

It's a fantastic question. First of all, I want to make this really clear. People have this idea that charisma is this, you know, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-kind of thing, where you know, your great aunt Tilly, who's the life of the party, enters the room and like everyone else disappears. You know what I mean? That you have to be bombastic in some way. I don't believe that at all. I think everybody's has their own charismatic presence, whatever that is. I think charismatic presence at its best allows you to be fully present and engaged in the moment at hand. All senses go. If you are in conversation with somebody else or a few somebody else's, like in an audience situation, you want to be present enough and hold space enough to recognize and feel what's going on with the audience of one or many. And that means always having a sense that you're not stepping on or litting anybody else. I use that expression litting. I see a lot in my life. You know, John, people will send me uh their, you know, members of their team. Oh, you gotta talk to Mary. Mary's having problems, you know, and then they'll list, you know, all the things that Mary needs and uh that you know she's not providing in her communication and her ability to lead. And I'll sit with Mary and she'll tell me about the person she reports to, and she'll say, you know, I don't. Even think, I don't think that they even bother to come say hello to me during the course of the day. I don't think they know much about me. I certainly don't feel that they like what I'm doing. I never get any kind of feedback from them that's positive. Whenever I try to speak up in a meeting, they know but me instead of yes and me. And I'm getting to the point where I'm just not even wanting to communicate. I'm not wanting to raise my hand, if you will. I'm wanting to fold up my little tent and go home because I don't feel safe. My the person I'm reporting to is abrupt in the way that she communicates with me. She is she can harm, she is sarcastic, she has uh a way of she is not warm at all. There is no warmth there, and um I'm not sure what to do about it. And that, John, is when I think, well, I really wish I could get the person she reports to in my office and work with her. Yes, there's a lot of litting that goes on out there via people's words, their actions, and the vibe that they put out, you know, and it makes people not want to play, it makes people want to play. It's rude.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

Now, um, kind of a related question. I don't know if you would call it charismatic presence or how you would put these things together, but can charismatic presence be used to persuade people toward incivility just as easily as toward respectful dialogue? What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Oh, that's a fantastic question. I would say that that's based on the intention behind it, right? What are they there to do? If someone has their charismatic presence on max and they're very appealing and very engaging, they're also very persuasive. And so it's what is driving them is going to determine whether that is harmful or helpful, right? It can tip people over the edge into something that is not helpful or injurious in some way, shape, or form. That's when you see that pack mentality happening too, you know, or someone who can instigate um activity, incivility against another with other people joining in, I think. And that can happen in meetings, it can happen, um, you know, in again in moments that that can really harm somebody's career.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

That's an excellent question, John.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

I like to ask excellent questions every now and then.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

You're good at it.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

But here's another question, following up on what you said about Mary. Because when I work with people like Mary, I mean, sometimes I'll tell people like Mary, you know, you have to do what you can, but sometimes the environment is just too powerful, no matter what you do. So there's that that sometimes you have to vote with your feet, as I say, and you have to go work in a different department or work elsewhere. But when if you are working with someone like Mary, what do what do you advise Mary to do in a situation where there is someone like that that's her boss that's that's living her, as you say, that's squashing her charismatic presence.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

I so agree with you. If the environment is toxic, uh get out, you know, and don't wait, don't wait till your soul is injured. But I also believe that you can be firm and kind at the same time. I know when I'm working with people like Mary, my job is to help bolster her from the inside out and help her remember her worth and her value, and then give her some phraseology that might help her uh speak up when it matters, not opt out. See that what I what I'm often dealing with are people opting out. That statistic you had on people avoiding uh presentations is amazing, and they do the same in meetings, they just don't speak, especially the people who are more introverted, you know, or internal processors. So Mary is just gonna sit there and get quieter and quieter and quieter. So I will work with Mary to help her find language to interrupt, to uh hold a boundary and to express what she needs to say in a voice and a tone and energy that means business.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Yes. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

Even if she only speaks up at once, it's better than shutting down for the whole meeting. That's how I think about this.

SPEAKER_01 26:54

Yes, yep. Um, and I I would just add to that, if I may, sometimes what I advise people is in situations like that, if you are going to speak up, as you're speaking, look at the people that you know are your allies that are going to be responding to you, as opposed to the people that you're trying to please or afraid of what toxicity they're gonna throw at you.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

Oh, absolutely. There's always people in the room. I always say it's like with an audience when you get up in front of an audience and you're scared out of your gourd, find the people who are smiling up at you. There's always going to be people there who are going to ally with you. And those are the people whose energies you want to harness.

SPEAKER_01 27:30

Absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

That's great. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

So, would you believe that our time is growing short, like the ghosts of Christmas past? But I wanted to ask first, what final piece of advice do you have for our listeners in terms of um dealing with toxicity and incivility in our in our environment, you know, in workplaces, in our culture, and how to protect yourself and your charismatic presence.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

You are responsible for protecting yourself. I believe this. Granted, there are times when it is very difficult to do that, and you have to know where that line is. I always remember my acting teacher saying to me, Elaine, you always you are the one who knows when someone is overstepping an emotional line with you, when a director or whatever, you're the one who has to know what that is. That means knowing thyself. You know, that means knowing thyself very, very well. And if you're finding yourself easily playing small in the face of these things, easily pulling back and being lided, do the work, get some support and find help. Don't wallow in this by yourself. There are coaches, there are therapists, there are great books. Get support and help because what you have to say and what you know really truly matters, and nobody knows it better than you or can express it the way that you can, and what you say could change something in a way that makes a massive difference. It deserves to be seen and heard and felt.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

Such great advice, such great advice. So I would bet that some of the people who are listening um would like to follow up with you. So, how can people find you um to work with you or learn more about your work?

SPEAKER_00 29:30

Well, you can find me at elaneikalakos.com, and I am sure that you can see the spelling of that name uh easily on whatever um John has attached to this website. It's elanikalakos.com, and I really I want to um encourage you to go check out Charismatic Presence in general. Um, and there is a uh which you can get on Amazon, but know that if you go to my website on the homepage and you're encouraged throughout as well, you can download a mini ebook with, if you will, kind of the essence of my charismatic presence principles that I think you will truly enjoy.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

That's great. Um, and I'll put um links to your website and any of maybe even the um the book. Um we'll get that in the show notes so people can find that um on the podcast website. So um listen, Alanea, I just want to thank you so much for joining us today. I know that the audience has really appreciated there. Thank you. Yes, so um so thank you. And I um I do hope at some point down the road that maybe you'll consider coming back to share more of your wisdom.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

Um I would love to, John. It would make me very happy to do that. You know that. Thank you for taking the time with me today. Um, this is I think the topic of topics. So I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

You also want to thank you, our viewers who are joining us. Whether you are have listened live or whether you're listening to recording, please know I'd love to have you back too. So, in closing, I'd like to invite you to recall how many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb? The answer is just one, but the light bulb must want to change. So, when it comes to the tidal wave of rudeness and incivility in our society, what kind of light bulb are you going to be? Until next time, I'm John O'Brien, and remember civility matters.